Comments on: Be Christlike! (Except For The Beard) http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/ Pragmatic Libertarianism Thu, 04 Dec 2008 00:25:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1 By: Derek Andersen http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2641 Derek Andersen Wed, 07 Feb 2007 21:08:06 +0000 http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2641 As a seminary teacher I don't have a choice if it were my choice I would have a flowing goatee. As or doctrine this is not! this is an opinion of a general authority. They can have opinions. Just like mormon doctrine is the OPINION of Bruce R. McConkie this book is not the doctrine of the church. If this GA sadi this in conference than this would be doctrine. My opinion is this you are viewed differently when you have facial hair! I was pulled over in Clinton UT years ago when I had a baseball cap on and a full goatee. THe officer made me get out of the car and walk the line and do other things thinking I was drunk driving. This was his preception from the way I looked. A few weeks later I had shaved for an interview and was returning my girlfriends car when I got pulled over same spot same cop. this time he was polite and smiled and sent me on my way not knowing who I was but treating me totally different. This GA may have had good intentions but portrayed himself with out much tact. As a seminary teacher I don’t have a choice if it were my choice I would have a flowing goatee. As or doctrine this is not! this is an opinion of a general authority. They can have opinions. Just like mormon doctrine is the OPINION of Bruce R. McConkie this book is not the doctrine of the church. If this GA sadi this in conference than this would be doctrine. My opinion is this you are viewed differently when you have facial hair! I was pulled over in Clinton UT years ago when I had a baseball cap on and a full goatee. THe officer made me get out of the car and walk the line and do other things thinking I was drunk driving. This was his preception from the way I looked. A few weeks later I had shaved for an interview and was returning my girlfriends car when I got pulled over same spot same cop. this time he was polite and smiled and sent me on my way not knowing who I was but treating me totally different. This GA may have had good intentions but portrayed himself with out much tact.

]]> By: Jeremy Manning http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2608 Jeremy Manning Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:10:41 +0000 http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2608 Large gut, bald head, and SWEET goatee are all available for your viewing here: http://www.themannings.org/mt/archives/002400.html Large gut, bald head, and SWEET goatee are all available for your viewing here: http://www.themannings.org/mt/archives/002400.html

]]> By: Daniel http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2607 Daniel Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:21:20 +0000 http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2607 Speaking of a goatee, I vote that Jeremy grows one. Speaking of a goatee, I vote that Jeremy grows one.

]]> By: Dignin http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2606 Dignin Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:14:41 +0000 http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2606 Peach fuzz is it! I thought peach fuzz was all that was left on the top of your head! (Sorry, I really didn't mean it but you walked right into that one!) Peach fuzz is it! I thought peach fuzz was all that was left on the top of your head!
(Sorry, I really didn’t mean it but you walked right into that one!)

]]> By: Dignin http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2604 Dignin Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:55:22 +0000 http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2604 P.S. If I were to ever be called to a Priesthood leadership calling I would shave to reflect the leaders whom I am to emulate. But as for now... P.S. If I were to ever be called to a Priesthood leadership calling I would shave to reflect the leaders whom I am to emulate. But as for now…

]]> By: Jeremy Manning http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2603 Jeremy Manning Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:53:55 +0000 http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2603 Dignan, I know for a fact that you haven't had a goatee for most of your life...unless you consider a small spattering of peach fuzz around your mouth a goatee :-) (since I've seen you only once or twice since your mission though maybe I shouldn't give you too hard a time. You could have a full fledged Joseph F. Smith beard now!) Your comment jives really well with the way I feel about issues like those you mentioned. Dignan,

I know for a fact that you haven’t had a goatee for most of your life…unless you consider a small spattering of peach fuzz around your mouth a goatee :-) (since I’ve seen you only once or twice since your mission though maybe I shouldn’t give you too hard a time. You could have a full fledged Joseph F. Smith beard now!)

Your comment jives really well with the way I feel about issues like those you mentioned.

]]> By: Dignin http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2602 Dignin Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:44:12 +0000 http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2602 This type of thing happened in a Stake Conference that I attended; however I was not aware it had happened. In the Closed Priesthood leadership meeting BEFORE the general sessions of Stake Conference Started the general authority gave counsel to many of the men IN ATTENDANCE that as Priesthood leaders in that area of the world they should reflect the attitude and appearance of the apostles. To such a humble teaching in the appropriate place the response was incredible, including one man who went to the bathroom immediately after the meeting and used a sharp pocket knife to cut his beard off while his wife brought him a razor from home. Another man in attendance shaved his long beard that he had been growing from his teenage days. This same general authority gave the missionaries there the same council that as Representatives of the church their attitudes behaviors and appearance should reflect those of the Apostles of the church. That was an appropriate way to teach, through the spirit in the right setting, not the public example. Also notice to whom these teachings were directed! I agree that all members of the church should live to show who they are, and their lives should reflect how they believe. Having said that I ask is it possible for me to have a goatee and still reflect who I am and how I believe in my life? Does the goatee negate any and all other perceptions of who I am and how I believe? I feel that my favorite quote from Pres. Benson applies to this subject. He said something to the effect that ‘when trying to determine where the line is (in regards to teachings of the church on chastity) faithful scripture reading Latter Day Saints will know how far is too far.’ I have had a goatee for the majority of my life because I like the way it looks. I am not trying to “be somebody else” or “fit in” I just like how it looks on me. And I have never once felt that it was the wrong thing to be reflecting. Plus public example literally drives people with young faith away from the church. My wife and the majority of her family left the church at critical times in their faith because of people trying to teach inappropriately. It was very hard to help my wife see the difference between the church doctrine and its imperfect members interpretations of such doctrines. Adam’s belly button, LDS becoming Gods, Caffeine, goatees, Harry Potter is evil, sports are evil, denim dresses in church... These are teaching lines that are dangerous to get close to and perhaps are left better unsaid unless directly quoted from Prophets or Scripture at the appropriate time in the appropriate place. After all in the great scheme of things are these issues going to be the major factors? Or will it be such things as Faith in God, Repentance, partaking of the Sacrament, following the dictates of the spirit, and other such doctrines. This type of thing happened in a Stake Conference that I attended; however I was not aware it had happened. In the Closed Priesthood leadership meeting BEFORE the general sessions of Stake Conference Started the general authority gave counsel to many of the men IN ATTENDANCE that as Priesthood leaders in that area of the world they should reflect the attitude and appearance of the apostles. To such a humble teaching in the appropriate place the response was incredible, including one man who went to the bathroom immediately after the meeting and used a sharp pocket knife to cut his beard off while his wife brought him a razor from home. Another man in attendance shaved his long beard that he had been growing from his teenage days. This same general authority gave the missionaries there the same council that as Representatives of the church their attitudes behaviors and appearance should reflect those of the Apostles of the church. That was an appropriate way to teach, through the spirit in the right setting, not the public example.
Also notice to whom these teachings were directed! I agree that all members of the church should live to show who they are, and their lives should reflect how they believe. Having said that I ask is it possible for me to have a goatee and still reflect who I am and how I believe in my life? Does the goatee negate any and all other perceptions of who I am and how I believe?
I feel that my favorite quote from Pres. Benson applies to this subject. He said something to the effect that ‘when trying to determine where the line is (in regards to teachings of the church on chastity) faithful scripture reading Latter Day Saints will know how far is too far.’ I have had a goatee for the majority of my life because I like the way it looks. I am not trying to “be somebody else” or “fit in” I just like how it looks on me. And I have never once felt that it was the wrong thing to be reflecting.
Plus public example literally drives people with young faith away from the church. My wife and the majority of her family left the church at critical times in their faith because of people trying to teach inappropriately. It was very hard to help my wife see the difference between the church doctrine and its imperfect members interpretations of such doctrines. Adam’s belly button, LDS becoming Gods, Caffeine, goatees, Harry Potter is evil, sports are evil, denim dresses in church… These are teaching lines that are dangerous to get close to and perhaps are left better unsaid unless directly quoted from Prophets or Scripture at the appropriate time in the appropriate place. After all in the great scheme of things are these issues going to be the major factors? Or will it be such things as Faith in God, Repentance, partaking of the Sacrament, following the dictates of the spirit, and other such doctrines.

]]> By: Reach Upward http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2600 Reach Upward Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:36:01 +0000 http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2600 I'd hate to have been in the GA's shoes or in the RM's shoes. Having been involved in a few of these kinds of events, the GA likely got the names of these young men from the stake president. The stake president likely hadn't seen the RM he recommended for a few weeks and wasn't aware he had facial hair. Since the whole point was to demonstrate how wonderful RMs are, the GA was probably expecting to get someone clean shaven. The young man he got didn't exactly have the appearance he expected to use as a model for the teenage boys. Thus, the effectiveness of his object lesson was reduced. He was embarrassed and tried to recover by telling the RM to shave. Would the Savior have handled it that way? I seriously doubt it. Having served in church leadership callings, would I have handled it in such a boneheaded manner? That's far more likely. I think we can excuse the man. It doesn't make this an example of the kind of behavior we'd like to model. And while the church doesn't give out clear standards on post-mission and adult grooming, much has been said, even quite recently about it. How you groom doesn't necessarily denote your level of discipleship, but it can be a precursor to it. I’d hate to have been in the GA’s shoes or in the RM’s shoes. Having been involved in a few of these kinds of events, the GA likely got the names of these young men from the stake president. The stake president likely hadn’t seen the RM he recommended for a few weeks and wasn’t aware he had facial hair. Since the whole point was to demonstrate how wonderful RMs are, the GA was probably expecting to get someone clean shaven. The young man he got didn’t exactly have the appearance he expected to use as a model for the teenage boys. Thus, the effectiveness of his object lesson was reduced. He was embarrassed and tried to recover by telling the RM to shave.

Would the Savior have handled it that way? I seriously doubt it. Having served in church leadership callings, would I have handled it in such a boneheaded manner? That’s far more likely. I think we can excuse the man. It doesn’t make this an example of the kind of behavior we’d like to model.

And while the church doesn’t give out clear standards on post-mission and adult grooming, much has been said, even quite recently about it. How you groom doesn’t necessarily denote your level of discipleship, but it can be a precursor to it.

]]> By: Part of the Plan http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2597 Part of the Plan Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:29:38 +0000 http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2597 Oh really? Watching those anti-war demonstrations, complete with Jane Fonda, the other day sure brought back not-so-fond memories of the 60's to this old soldier. That plus all the hateful anti-military crap the Loopy Left at OneUtah posts sounds exactly like the hippy-filled 60's. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Oh really? Watching those anti-war demonstrations, complete with Jane Fonda, the other day sure brought back not-so-fond memories of the 60’s to this old soldier. That plus all the hateful anti-military crap the Loopy Left at OneUtah posts sounds exactly like the hippy-filled 60’s. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

]]> By: Daniel http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2596 Daniel Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:12:07 +0000 http://www.themannings.org/soapbox/2007/01/26/be-christlike-except-for-the-beard/#comment-2596 As Elder Oaks says in the first quote, "our rules against beards and long hair are contemporary and pragmatic." He said that in 1971. Things that were contemporary in 1971 are no longer contemporary 36 years later. It's about time that people recognize that we are not living in the hippy-filled 60's--that was 40 years ago. As Elder Oaks says in the first quote, “our rules against beards and long hair are contemporary and pragmatic.” He said that in 1971. Things that were contemporary in 1971 are no longer contemporary 36 years later. It’s about time that people recognize that we are not living in the hippy-filled 60’s–that was 40 years ago.

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