Trouble In Mordor
Apparently an elderly woman in Utah County was cited by an officer for not watering her lawn. When she protested the cop called for backup and they tossed her in jail. And I thought Davis County was bad…
Nice bunch you guys have up there in Utah County under the all seeing “Y”.
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That officer sure did over-react, though it’s never a good idea to refuse to identify yourself to a law officer. That’s Citizenship 101.
Comment by Jesse Harris — July 8, 2007 @ 2:16 pm
I would like to know what law the officer was upholding by his action: Was it a civil or a criminal act he was acting on?
He probably requested a SWAT and they refused, he just doesn’t get it.
I have even witnessed a constable knock on a friends house and take him to jail only to have him released by the booking officer after learning that the warrant was for an inspection sticker, I think the ticket at the time was $35 and not but one notch above not watering your lawn.
I would have pleaded that I was conserving water, but that would have been deemed to be an act of environmentalism, and that would have been an even larger offense to soceity.
Bob in Petaluma
Comment by Paintmequick — July 8, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
Funny thing, back about 15 years ago I spent a few months in Provo. I remember counting at least 5 officers running red lights for personal gain. Now, I’ve gained an understanding that many law officers who go bad begin down that road by believing they are above the law, or can make the law themselves…a fine line that should not be crossed.
Comment by cody — July 8, 2007 @ 6:34 pm
I wish that I could get a paid vacation every time my employer finds out I have messed up and wasted company time and money! I would be tempted to mess up every time I wanted to hang out with my kids!
And Jesse, I am curious, is there a law that says you must identify yourself to an officer, or get arrested? I thought it was our right to not say a word to an officer, or at least have a lawyer present? If I am wrong I really want to know.
Comment by Dignin — July 9, 2007 @ 9:24 am
Dignin,
I’m glad you asked that question. It gives me a chance to do a new post on one of my favorite websites!
Comment by Jeremy Manning — July 9, 2007 @ 9:30 am
A case of a Nevada man convicted for choosing not to provide identification to police went to the U.S. Supreme Court in 2004, which upheld the conviction.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/21/scotus.police.id/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/21/scotus.police.id/index.html
The actual decision [pdf]:
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/03pdf/03-5554.pdf
Comment by Tom — July 9, 2007 @ 9:40 am
Tom,
Right you are. You beat me to the punchline. I just put up a new post which links to FlexYourRights.org. They have provided a lot of great information and discussion about this legal situation and many others. It is important to know what constitutional rights we actually have and what they mean when the cops come knocking!
Comment by Jeremy Manning — July 9, 2007 @ 10:09 am
Someone mentioned that I am being a little to hard on Utah county when I call it Mordor. I disagree
Actually I only do that to bug my lovely wife who hails from Orem. Since she never actually spends much time on this site and probably doesn’t know what “Mordor” means I guess it is pretty pointless for me to call it that but I get a kick out of it anyway.
Comment by Jeremy Manning — July 9, 2007 @ 10:23 am
Be nice to Utah County. I live there too.
I’ve just re-read the Hiibel case (linked above). I first read it when it was released–it was of particular interest, as in 1999 I was asked for identification while a passenger during a traffic stop in Idaho. I complied because of the implied threat of a traffic ticket for the driver (which happened anyway). It was degrading. Although the officer’s language was polite, the implied message was “I’m sorry sir, you look like a criminal.”
Likely because of this experience, I’d have to say I agree more with Justice Steven’s dissent than with the majority on this one. (Case was 5-4, with two different dissenting opinions.)
One of the reasons the majority upheld was a Nevada state law requiring citizens to identify themselves if suspects in criminal investigations. Citizens retained the right to be silent on all other matters. Does anyone know Utah’s law(s) on the subject?
Comment by Tom — July 9, 2007 @ 11:15 am
FWIW comparing Utah County to Mordor is being a little too hard on Mordor.
Comment by Part of the Plan — July 9, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
One question I haven’t heard people asking is why should a cop be allowed to cite someone for not watering their lawn?
Comment by Daniel — July 10, 2007 @ 12:03 am
Many cities and counties have ordinances against leaving trash in your yard (i.e. old appliances and broken down cars). Yard maintenance certainly is pushing the limits, though I can see the point that maintaining such standards helps preserve property values. If you were this woman’s neighbor, you might have a harder time selling your home with a weed-filled dirt yard next door. Sure, you could probably sue your neighbor for dragging down your property value, but that’s going to engender a lot more ill will than sending the 5-0 out to enforce an ordinance. It seems, then, that an ordinance might be the lesser evil.
Comment by Jesse Harris — July 10, 2007 @ 10:27 am
To answer PoP: because you’ve allowed your city council to pass ordinances like that. It may sound a bit trite, but at the most basic level, it’s because citizens allow it. I think Jesse has it partly right re preventing ill-will/lesser evil. Potential fire hazard is another reason. Still these ordinances make me a little uncomfortable.
In my old house, which had a rather large lot, we were threatened with a citation from the city because the weeds in our flower beds were too high. (The lawn was trimmed and cared for.) A neighbor had reported our lawn anonymously to the city office of “Weed Abatement”. There is an office down at city hall that does nothing but respond to complaints like this (it was not handled by the police, as in the Orem story).
The “weed patrol” was polite and relatively easy to work with. It was a bit frustrating, because between my main job, two side jobs, and my elected job, I was pretty much gone 12-hours/day, six days/week. My “day of rest” was more of a “day of exhaustion”. Out of all of my priorities, the flower beds were close to the bottom of my list. (I tried tarp-ing at one point, but the weeds grew through the tarp.)
We were fortunate as I was able to hire some teenagers down the street to just mow the flower beds. I don’t know what would I have done if I hadn’t been able to afford it.
I guess my bottom line is that while I understand concerns about property value, fire hazards, nuisance (my weeds getting to my neighbor’s lawn), etc., laws like these create situations (as seen in the case of the grandma!) that may go against the community conscience. What is the best way to resolve all of these concerns?
Comment by Tom — July 10, 2007 @ 2:05 pm
I don’t know the best way to resolve these questions. As a libertarian, I favor private agreements, but it is difficult to move from our current zoning-controlled situation to something else. And people that agree to private covenants better make sure that they actually agree with all of the covenants because small governmental bodies like Home Owners Associations are frequently run by humorless busybodies.
I think citing this old lady for not watering her lawn is silly. I’d like to change the ordinances that require that, but I don’t live in Utah County.
Comment by Daniel — July 10, 2007 @ 3:23 pm
Wow. That’s nuts.
Comment by Michael — August 5, 2007 @ 8:31 pm